The Gaming Den

So, what is the appropriate way to challenge RoW characters in the wish economy? How should you reward them, experience-wise?

RoW Characters that have entered the wish economy are pretty darn powerful compared to many of the entries in the CR system, so, it is not trivial to select encounters for them to face.

There are a few options that I can think of to deal with this:

1) Higher CR encounters. Fun and simple. RoW + Wish Economy probably means that you're fighting around 3 CR above where you are supposed to. Unless you want to level crazy-fast, that means that you should curb XP awards (probably as if you are CL+3).

2) Random bonuses. Give monsters, like maximum HP, +5 dodge bonus to AC, +5 to attack, +2-5 to saves, and +2-5 to save DCs. Throw in a few RoW or [Monstrous] feats that sound awesome. Give XP as normal.

Are there other methods? Preferences between the methods?

Of course, I forgot the obvious:

3) Loading the critter up with piles of magical gear worth < 15K.

There's also 'Give monsters arbitrary amounts of <=wish treasure too.'

Both that and selecting new feats can be a lot of work for the DM, so if you're feeling lazy just throw under-CR'ed creatures at the PCs (or, as you say, under-CR them yourself).

[Edit]And I'm 33 seconds too slow...[/Edit]

To first order, you can approximate the effects of the wish economy by giving a monster:

* +7 to all stats
* +7 AC (+2 touch) if it wears clothing, and +6/+2 otherwise
* +2 to hit/damage if it uses manufactured weapons, and +1 otherwise
* +3 to all saves

That's not that much work--most of the difficulty is in carrying through all the stat increases. I'm actually tempted to just go through all the CR 11+ monsters and just restat everything that way (maybe throwing in a random elemental resist too, especially when there's an obvious vulnerability to cover).

Feats are harder, and RoW feats do weird things on monsters (since HD and CR don't correlate very well).

Wish Economy = Tiefling Wizard with 51 AC.

That means shit when a Hamatula can down you due to your crummy Touch AC in 2 rounds. Even with 3 other PCs 'trying' to harass the Ham.

The Hamatula is also a CR 11. My wizard is sixth level.

Oh, forgot to mention.

Our sixth level party beat its ass. Between the raging juggernaut barbarian's grapple checks (assisted by the four other party members) and the rogue coup-de-grace using my scythe, we owned it hardcore. Took a while, but we did it.

Actually, I fudged the CdG rules.

You only get crits, no forcing for a fort save or auto-deaths anymore.

Makes power-attacking more useful.

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1179014133[/unixtime]]Actually, I fudged the CdG rules.

You only get crits, no forcing for a fort save or auto-deaths anymore.

Makes power-attacking more useful.

Don't CdGs hit automatically?

Yeah, you count the attack as an auto-crit, and you can obviously use SA/Precision damage dice.

That's it though, no forcing of a fort save to auto-die anymore.

The it's not a CdG anymore. It's just extra stabbity death. You do know what coup de grace means, right?

micah at [unixtime wrote:1178920724[/unixtime]]To first order, you can approximate the effects of the wish economy by giving a monster:

* +7 to all stats
* +7 AC (+2 touch) if it wears clothing, and +6/+2 otherwise
* +2 to hit/damage if it uses manufactured weapons, and +1 otherwise
* +3 to all saves

That's not that much work--most of the difficulty is in carrying through all the stat increases. I'm actually tempted to just go through all the CR 11+ monsters and just restat everything that way (maybe throwing in a random elemental resist too, especially when there's an obvious vulnerability to cover).

Feats are harder, and RoW feats do weird things on monsters (since HD and CR don't correlate very well).

It strikes me that this isn't exactly the bonuses you want to give the monsters. (Though I'm willing to try it). Instead, it seems like what you want to do is give them +7 stats ( as you said), +3-4 AC, +3-4 to hit, +2-3 to DCs. Ie, you don't want them to have the *same* bonuses as players, you want them to have bonuses that help compensate for the players bonuses so the game doesn't turn into padded sumo. (You may have noticed that AC and saves increased faster than save DCs and to hit?)

It's entirely possible, especially since I forgot about monk's-belt cheese when I wrote that. On the other hand, I'd argue that some movement toward padded sumo is a good thing for high-level combat...

You're only a couple levels away from rocket tag anyway.

I've always though but never been able to tell for sure...

Is "rocket launcher tag" a way of saying "the first successful attack wins"?

Game On,
fbmf

It's what I get too, and, AFAIK, it comes from multiplayer FPSs, where you try to "tag" people, so to say.

Thing is, rocket tag is actually accomplishable as low as level one. After the first adventure, the Wizard has enough money and experience for scrolls of Color Spray; Will saves are usually the lowest or second lowest you'll find at that level, so on your second adventure you'll be winning with the first successful attack.

Brobdingnagian at [unixtime wrote:1179185518[/unixtime]]Thing is, rocket tag is actually accomplishable as low as level one. After the first adventure, the Wizard has enough money and experience for scrolls of Color Spray; Will saves are usually the lowest or second lowest you'll find at that level, so on your second adventure you'll be winning with the first successful attack.

Color spray only lasts a round at caster level one, and at first level it can be difficult to take out a number of stunned guys in one round (although juggling would work).

Scrolls of Color Spray have a DC of 11... That means even with a save bonus of +0, you have a 50% chance of success. And it's a 15' cone, so unless you're willing to go up close to the opposition, you're not going to get that many enemies.

Will saves are usually the lowest or second lowest you'll find at that level, so on your second adventure you'll be winning with the first successful attack.

They might be the lowest, but here's a poll of CR1 creatures' will saves from the SRD:
+0: 8
+1: 9
+2: 8
+3: 3
+4: 2*
+5: 1
Immune: 11

* I'm giving Drow a +5 (in addition to their -1) because of their SR

Sure, 40% chance of ending an encounter with your first action isn't half bad, but it's hardly rocket launcher tag. That's assuming there is only one of them. It's like a 16% chance if there are two of them that you can get with a single spell.

Rocket tag means a single successful attack kills, not just first attack. Granted, it's not the greatest, and it's probably not better than the Barbarian with the greatsword, but it is still there.

And what creature has a +5 at CR1?

Catharz at [unixtime wrote:1179203914[/unixtime]]
Color spray only lasts a round at caster level one, and at first level it can be difficult to take out a number of stunned guys in one round (although juggling would work).

Color Spray's effect's duration is based solely on the target's hit die. It's actually most likely to last the longest at level one.

fbmf at [unixtime wrote:1179167935[/unixtime]]I've always though but never been able to tell for sure...

Is "rocket launcher tag" a way of saying "the first successful attack wins"?

Rocket launcher tag basically means that offenses greatly overpower defenses, to the point that initiative becomes more important than actual ability. Under RLT, nobody really cares what your AC or hp are anymore.

Ghouls have a +5 will save at CR1, except I erred -- they are immune. I expect I missed some others that are immune... (I'm pretty sure I missed lemures).

Huh. That's cool.

...

Next time I DM for a level one party, they'll have to deal with ghouls... heh heh...

Brobdingnagian at [unixtime wrote:1179268208[/unixtime]]Huh. That's cool.

...

Next time I DM for a level one party, they'll have to deal with ghouls... heh heh...

I've done that before?

We faced a trio of Lacedons in Pandemonium, the lvl 4 cleric did nothing to tunr them.

And he actually ID'd them as undead...

That was one of the the longest fights that I've seen in a while. It took so long that the DM hand-waved the last two encounters since he knew we'd win them and that we had run out of time for the module.